Mike Perkins
Andreas Bertachini Deranian
Tiens, je me pose une question… et j’imagine que parmi vous, il y a des lettrés qui sauront (je pense bien entendu à @Fred_le_Mallrat, mais peut-être d’autres ont-ils des pistes)…
Je viens de relire le premier chapitre de Captain America Comics #1, et j’ai noté que le Professeur Erskine parle de « super-agents », et pas de « super-soldats ». Ce qui peut se comprendre parce qu’à l’époque l’Amérique n’est pas encore en guerre.
Et du coup, je cherche à dater la première occurrence de l’expression « super-soldat », en lien avec Cap.
Une idée ?
Jim
je sais pas
mais agent car au départ on est bien sur un agent du FBI qui infiltre l armée.
ce qui sera vite oublié.
Dans la relecture de Tales of Suspense #63, Stan a remplacé « corps of super agents » par « army of fighting men »…ce n’était pas encore « super-soldat » mais on n’était pas loin…^^
Greg Rucka était sur la shortlist pour être le scenariste de la série MK mais son approche n’a pas convaincu
Going back to regret Rucka’s expressed at no longer writing Wonder Woman, Taylor asked if there were any characters he wished he’d had the chance to write. « I never got the chance to write Captain America, » Rucka said, explaining that he had written a sample for editor Stuart Moore, but that at the time the job of writing « Captain America » had gone to John Ney Rieber instead. « I wish I had gotten that, » he said. « I think Cap is a brilliant character. At all times, there is a need for a well-written Captain America. In prosperity, or in whatever we call what we’re in now. »
Austen aussi
Austen’s history with Cap dates back to his time on Elektra, when he first heard of the title’s move to the Marvel Knights imprint.
« It’s funny, I originally pitched to do Cap back when I was drawing Elektra, » Austen said. "I had heard from my editor at the time, Stuart Moore, that they were going to be taking Cap into the Knights fold and I asked if I could pitch. He said I could but could promise nothing.
"I thought I could dazzle him. So I took the weekend and put together a proposal and a full script on spec. This was pre-War Machine, and I had turned Cap into an anti-terrorist SAS type soldier with a lot of Tom Clancy weapons and gear, and some other people in his unit. But he was always at odds with his superiors, who were intended to be a branch of SHIELD, because he refused to kill.
"He worked with Hawkeye, Falcon, and a few other new guys in a squad. They carried weapons, Mp-5’s, Flashbangs, night-vision scopes, the whole nine yards, but Cap’s stuff was all non-lethal. Rubber bullets. Tasers. Sticky foam. Stuart really liked it, but he thought Rieber was better suited for the book, and I went back to Elektra.
"Cut to a year and a half later, and Joe calls and says he needs help with Captain America. He had heard I put in a pitch in the early days and liked what he had heard, and wanted to move more in that direction.
J’en vacille sous le choc.
Oui, l’opération est chapeautée par un agent du FBI, en effet.
Mais je les vois mal mettre trop l’armée en avant, alors que le pays ne sera en guerre qu’un an plus tard, et reste figé ans sa neutralité au moment où ils réalisent l’épisode.
Jim
Y avait un article de X. fournier dans CB où son hypothese etait qu avant la guerre l armée était assez mal vue contrairement au FBI montant (il me semble qu il citait pas mal de fiction qui étayait cela) et donc c est dans ce cadre que Cap arrive… puis quand la guerre éclate il est plus question de questionner la fiabilité de l armée.
Intéressant.
Jim
CB 65 un article sur les liens du FBI avec les comics.
Creation du FBI en 35: Dict Tracy au ciné, Agent X9 retcon
federal men chez DC par Siegel et Shuster
Sur Cap d ailleurs Xavier Fournier pose même le fait que peut etre Steve Rogers est un nuom sous couverture
Il y a un retour de manivelle aprés où le FBI n est plus considéré comme « bien »
vite en diago il semble que le FBI etait aussi dans la creation de la JSA (ou je lis mal mais j ai pas le temps tout de suite)
Il y a aussi un podcast sur le fbi et service secret dans les comic, il me semble.
Et ça : Le défi Nikolavitch : Agent fédéral | Bruce Lit
Le defi Nikolavitch : FBI et Culture Populaire
L autre point qui change c est que le shield est deja un agent du fbi et qu avec l histoire du biuclier triangulaire
C’est un constant va-et-vient, les relations entre le FBI et la fiction. Période de creux après le Watergate, remplacé par la figure du détective privé, retour en grâce avec X-Files…
Jim
Fournier pointait que le cia avait bonne presse fut un temps, puis cela c etait dégradé et de là l arme x, par exemple.
Va falloir que je regarde si je l’ai, ce numéro.
Jim
Le parcours éditorial de la série Marvel Knights
Il est très difficile de remonter autant le temps même sur internet.
La créative team est annoncée le 4 août 2001 "après des mois de rumeurs.
https://web.archive.org/web/20020111084243/http://comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=261
John Ney Rieber indique qu’il a rencontré Stuart Moore qui lui en a parlé et lui a demandé de pitcher mais que Marvel cherchait un grands noms comme Greg Rucka ou Frank Miller.
SSS: How did you come to be offered the assignment to write Captain America?
accidentally. i was talking with stuart moore–the original marvel knights editor for the project–and he just happened to bring it up. he said, you know, you’re not someone anyone would think of for this, but…
and he was right.
it’s my understanding that marvel was looking for a heavy hitter to revive the character. someone with serious superhero credentials, like frank miller or greg rucka. and i’d only written a single (and not particularly memorable) story in that genre. but stuart liked the sample scenes i generated, my take on the character…
Captain America Covers
Greg Rucka a d’ailleurs confirmé cela et Chuck Austen a indiqué avoir lui aussi postulé.
Going back to regret Rucka’s expressed at no longer writing Wonder Woman, Taylor asked if there were any characters he wished he’d had the chance to write. « I never got the chance to write Captain America, » Rucka said, explaining that he had written a sample for editor Stuart Moore, but that at the time the job of writing « Captain America » had gone to John Ney Rieber instead. « I wish I had gotten that, » he said. « I think Cap is a brilliant character. At all times, there is a need for a well-written Captain America. In prosperity, or in whatever we call what we’re in now. »
Austen’s history with Cap dates back to his time on Elektra, when he first heard of the title’s move to the Marvel Knights imprint.
« It’s funny, I originally pitched to do Cap back when I was drawing Elektra, » Austen said. "I had heard from my editor at the time, Stuart Moore, that they were going to be taking Cap into the Knights fold and I asked if I could pitch. He said I could but could promise nothing.
"I thought I could dazzle him. So I took the weekend and put together a proposal and a full script on spec. This was pre-War Machine, and I had turned Cap into an anti-terrorist SAS type soldier with a lot of Tom Clancy weapons and gear, and some other people in his unit. But he was always at odds with his superiors, who were intended to be a branch of SHIELD, because he refused to kill.
"He worked with Hawkeye, Falcon, and a few other new guys in a squad. They carried weapons, Mp-5’s, Flashbangs, night-vision scopes, the whole nine yards, but Cap’s stuff was all non-lethal. Rubber bullets. Tasers. Sticky foam. Stuart really liked it, but he thought Rieber was better suited for the book, and I went back to Elektra.
Joe Quesada et Bill Jemas voulait revigorer le titre comme Daredevil l’avait été sous cette bannière avec une approche moins spandex et plus réaliste.
L’annonce est donc faites en aout 2001 pour début 2022. Le run de Jurgens continuera pendant 6 mois.
Cependant les plans vont changer avec les attentats du 11/09/2001.
Rieber va écrire un nouvel arc inaugural pendant que The Extremist deviendra le second arc.
Ney Rieber devait écrire une mini série qui devait faire le lien entre la mort de Steve Rogers dans le #50 du volume 3 et la série Marvel Knights mais le fait de devoir changer les plans du premier arc entrainera l’abandon de ce projet. Macan et Zezelj sortiront Dean Men Running entre les deux volume de la série.
En février 2002, la mini série Ice sera annoncée par Riber et Jae Lee. Elle devait reparler du fameux moment où le personnage est en hibernation dans la glace.
En avril la série sort enfin mais devient bimestrielle pour le 1er arc. C’est là que la décision d’intégrer Ice comme troisième arc doit être prise pour donner du temps à l’équipe créative.
Rieber semblait ne pas avoir de plans précis mais Cassaday devait revenir.
Rieber doesn’t have a lot of information about what’s in store for Cap fans beyond « Ice, » for very good reasons.
[Page 16]
Issue #7, Page 16"Mmm … honestly …"I always leave room for the characters to surprise me, when I’m scripting. I definitely have some ideas I’d like to explore with Cap … but I don’t know exactly where Cap will be when ‹ Ice › concludes – and after scripting three arcs simultaneously for the past for the past year, I’m looking forward to carrying around one Cap-world in my head at a time, instead of three.
"And you never really know what’s going to happen. From day to day, much less year to year. Joe Quesada and I haven’t even begun to discuss a fourth arc. So there’s even more uncertainty than usual there.
"But if I’m still on the book and Cassaday comes back for another arc – which was the plan, more than a year ago, before September the Eleventh – we want to take cap out of the country – and the west – for a while. To the Middle East or Africa. Harsh places …
« For harsh reasons. »
https://web.archive.org/web/20021021060338/http://comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=1610
Cependant Rieber allait quitter le titre au milieu des deux intrigues de Extremists et de Ice. Son approche avait plu à Quesada mais pas sa façon d’écrire le personnage necessitant pas mal de réécritures, ne devant pas aider le titre à avoir une direction et un rhytme mensuel.
As for why he’s leaving the book, Rieber chalked it up to approach. “I tend to write a particular kind of story, even when I’m doing something that’s pretty action-based, I’m always more interested in the characters than anything else,” Rieber said. “Probably the simplest way that I can describe what happened is that Joe Quesada has a very clear vision about what he wants Cap to be, and my Cap just wasn’t quite what he was looking for. They liked a lot of my ideas, but some of the approaches that I had to storytelling and structuring things and the weighting of the character just wasn’t meshing with his vision.
“In the end, I was doing lots and lots of rewriters of scripts, and it was slowing things down. We all reached a place where we realized that it might be better if someone else was doing the book. I guess that’s the long way of saying that we had creative differences.”
Graphitti Designs Presents... NEWSARAMA: RIEBER OFF CAP, AUSTEN ON
Austen est donc choisi par Quesada pour finir ces deux intrigues car son pitch (vu plus haut) lui plaisait bien. Le scénariste semblait confiant sur le fait de rester sur le titre.
« If I get the series, I’d want to go that route I mentioned earlier. I’d bring in new villains, bigger than life villains; make Cap more of a James Bond with a Tom Clancy twist for the new millennium. I’d tie him closer to Nick Fury and SHIELD, in a sense doing what Jim Steranko was doing for his time, back in the sixties. Hardware, tools, and the occasional femme fatale with the world as a stage. Bad guys, explosions, world-threatening violence and hidden government conspiracies with Cap punching his way through to victory. I think it would be a blast. At least for me. »
L’arc suivant est une sorte de What If par Dave Gibbons et Lee Weeks où Captain America sort d’hibernation dans un monde où les nazis ont gagné la guerre.
On sent que cette mini n’était pas prévu pour le titre mais est là pour laisser la nouvelle équipe creative arriver.
Jusque là, Rieber et Austen dans les interviews que j’ai mis en lien semblent indiquer que la série est en continuité et qu’ils peuvent utiliser les personnages de leurs choix.
Pourtant seul Namor apparait dans Ice avec des cauchemars impliquants Sharon ou Red Skull. Mais la série n’a vu aucun autre personnage Marvel, même pas Fury alors que le SHIELD est omniprésent.
Robert Morales arrive sur le titre avec Chris Bachalo. Robert Morales a déjà écrit Truth où il crée Isaiah Bradley avec Kyle Baker. La mini sort de Janvier à Juillet 2003. Captain America 21 sort en décembre 2003.
Il envoie Cap à Guantanamo.
En 2005, Robert Morales nous explique sur le forum de Quesada qui n’existe plus depuis qu’il a été poussé vers la sortie.
Il avait signé pour 18 numéros et n’en fit que 9. Les deux dernier n’étaient pas ceux prévus et voient Steve Rogers projetés sur une terre où ISaiah Bradley est le seul Captain America.
Gui Kayro - Marvel’s Chief Information Officer, trouvait son run trop politique. Dan Buckley voulait que la série Captain America réintègre la continuité pour participer à Avengers Disassembled et ainsi promouvoir l’arrivée de Bendis sur Avengers.
Morales parla avec Bendis qui lui indiqua adorer ce qu’il prévoyait sur la série mais que ca ne pouvait pas coïncider avec Disassembled. Buckley et Marvel ont décidé que si ça ne pouvait pas aider les ventes d’Avengers alors ca n’avait pas d’intérêt.
Jusque là, il ne lui était pas permis d’utiliser des personnages Marvel dans la série à part Nick Fury.
Ca l’embêtait car il trouvait justement que Captain America dépendait beaucoup des éléments de son histoire.
Il faut dire aussi qu’à l’époque Marvel lance un second titre Captain America & The falcon qui est clairement en continuité et lancé sur cet argument.
En fait, l’idée de Morales est que Steve Rogers allait accepter la proposition d’être candidat en tant que Vice Président (ce qu’il refuse à la fin du numéro publié alors que Marvel avait annoncé un événement qui allait tout changer) puis devenir par un concours de circonstance Président des USA. Il aurait été difficile de le placer sur le spectre politique.
Puis quand c’est tombé à l’eau, Quesada lui a soufflé une idée intéressante (qu’il ne donne pas) lors d’un déjeuner avec Alonso (alors éditeur du titre). Mais Buckley pris sa décision que la série devait revenir dans continuité avec un nouveau scénariste. Bendis souffla le nom de Brubaker pour Marvel et quand on lui demanda la série qu’il voulait faire, il répondit « Captain America ».
Robert Morales révèle plein de choses intéressantes sur le forum de Joe Quesada ! Attention aux spoilers bien sûr
http://www.joequesada.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?s=4089528b17bbffff;act=ST;f=1;t=17438;st=0
Quote (rwsmith @ April 19 2004,22:30)
Robert, will you be doing any more work for Marvel in the near future?
If so, can you tell us what title(s)?Morales : I committed to doing 18 issues of Captain America; my run will end with eight issues. I’ve turned down any further work from Marvel, including a S.H.I.E.L.D. series and a 1602 spin-off.
I’ve told Axel I’d only discuss doing another ten issues of Cap.
Quote (khanus @ April 19 2004,22:30)
Ok. So Robert, what was the main reason for your run being cut short? Any other Marvel work on the horizon, or in comics in general?Morales : Gui Kayro - Marvel’s Chief Information Officer - hated what I was doing with Cap, even though I was doing precisely what Marvel Edit asked of me. Evidently Kayro thinks topicality is the same as political bias - it’s not. (I think my Cap is as political as « 24 » - i.e., it’s right on the line.) That’s one.
Two, Dan Buckley wanted Iron Man, Thor, and Cap to be support titles for Brian Bendis’ new Avengers run. I’d been okayed for a completely different storyline - mind you, the MK Cap was to be out of MU continuity originally, but Buckley wanted that changed. That Cap or any of Marvel’s other titles were to be directed toward a non-traditional comics audience was an idea he was abandoning.
Brian Bendis called me and we discussed what we were both doing, and once he heard me out, Brian said he a) thought the direction I was taking Cap was really interesting, and b) he would tell Marvel they should leave me alone. My understanding is that Buckley took Brian’s comments to mean that my Cap run was therefore useless when it came to supporting what we were all calling « the Bendis Event » at the time. So he insisted that my 18-issue storyline be scuttled, whether Brian or anybody else at Marvel wanted to do that or not.
Yes, Steve Rogers was supposed to eventually become an independent vice-presidential candidate, and he was supposed to eventually become President of the United States. But the challenge was you’d never get a real handle on his political stance - it was all about his character, and what everyone else would project onto it.
In early February, Joe and Axel and I went out to lunch - pretty much to part company, but instead Joe came up with another story arc that was really great and challenging. We fleshed it out and were surprised at how positively the afternoon turned out. However, Buckley killed that idea.
Then Axel came to me again and asked if I could come up with something else, so I suggested retelling Cap’s origin for a modern audience, which hadn’t been done in awhile. You’d find more about Cap’s interaction with real history, where his shield and costume came from, it’d have cameos by Sgt. Fury and Bucky and Hitler and Ike - a big, sweeping historical epic.
Buckley decided that World War II wasn’t big enough - and it was clear to me then that Marvel management just didn’t want me writing Cap, period.
Quote (jedicow @ April 19 2004,22:52)
you dont have to give spoilers…just a small synopsis of the story will suffice.Morales : Cap #26 is a stand-alone story. Cap #27-28 involve an alternate future, and it’s both horrific and funny. (I hope.)
Quote (JackalsIII @ April 20 2004,00:47)
Were you really going to have Steve Rogers run and win the Presidency?Morales : Cap as President was supposed to be a highly-publicized event - unlike Luthur’s win, which I didn’t know about for a while, and I follow comics. That they’d decide not to go with that storyline is understandable to the extent that Marvel isn’t doing the kind of outside media promotion they used to for their books.
Quote (Matt Adler @ April 20 2004,04:03)
…if, instead of going with a new writer, Marvel had simply come to you and said « Bob, we want Cap to go in a more superheroic direction » is that something you think you could’ve pulled off, or is political Cap more up your alley?Morales : Well, Matt, the weird thing is I was told specifically not to use all the classic Marvel characters in my Cap run - Marvel wanted something completely new. I was told the Red Skull and Hydra and AIM and the rest were either over-used or off-limits. That I got to use Nick Fury was a great treat.
I would’ve loved to have been allowed to do a more superhero-y book, because I see possibilities of making superhero comics more contemporary that nobody’s exploring - and frankly, if I do superhero comics it’s because I want to make a contribution to them, not because I just want to make a buck doing what others can do better than I.
I also think it’s impossible to do a Cap run without the history of the Marvel U, except that with Cap, real history makes his character all the richer. So I guess the answer to your question is yeah, probably - but it’s really beside the point because some people just wanted me off the book.
Morales : 1. The experiment was a failure of Marvel management’s commitment toward marketing their books, whether or not they agreed with their content. Most people at Marvel Edit though it was way to soon to access how the book was doing financially.
Quote (ChopperJohn @ April 19 2004,10:57)
How does editorial allow 2 Cap in Cuba stories at the same time anyways.Morales : I’ve been stacking up my Cap/Falcons so I won’t read them until Priest’s first arc is completed. (I like Christopher Priest.) I don’t think the MK Cap continuity has anything to do with it. However, I’m as puzzled about its Guantanamo Bay storyline as everybody who asks me about it.
Quote (Matt Adler @ April 21 2004,00:22)
Seriously, why’s it such a big deal? Runs end all the time before they’re supposed to. I’d’ve thought you’d be flattered that they want to give you another high profile assignment right away.Morales : I write for a living and I’m not prolific, so I really have to mindful of where I commit my efforts. Comics don’t really pay a lot if you’re a relative unknown like myself. Superstars like Bendis and Mark Millar and [your favorite here] get paid more - artists get paid at least twice what writers do - and I don’t begrudge anybody the deal they get. For me, the appeal of writing Cap was that a) I was to be given specific guidelines, then left alone to write a character upon which I grew up idolizing, and b) Marvel pays you when they say they will.
So even though a Cap script earned me a so-so $2200, I didn’t really mind - I’ve other things happening. But committing yourself to 18 issues is still a commitment, Matt - and when people above the people you work for undermine the commitments you’ve already made, isn’t unwise to commit yourself again and set yourself up for some other corporate brainfart?
I’m not like people who want to be in a relationship so badly, they’re willing to stay in a bad relationship.
http://www.buzzcomics.net/showpost.php?p=124147&postcount=20
La série finit par un arc de Kirkmann et Eaton censé être un tie-in à Disassembled mais sans aucun lien avec l’intrigue de Bendis. C’est la seule histoire qui semble un tant soit peu en continuité et qui utilise toute la mythologie du personnage. Ce n’est par contre pas la plus réussie ou du moins la plus intéressante.
1 « J'aime »
l’histoire prouvera que non.
Ce qui arrivera dans l’univers Ultimate.
