Même avec l’explication de son frangin (avec une apparence semblable et une personnalité différente) ?
Je ne trouve pas…
Quand j ai lu Hobgoblin lives je trouvais ca encore moins convaincant et quand je relis les apparions de Roderick c est encore pire…
Là je viens de lire le lien vers le site que tu donnes et je ne peux qu etre d accord avec lui.
Roderick pase pour un clown lors de al saga belladona.
C est d ailleurs quasiment ce que Stern prevoiera pour Hobgoblin avec Beladona sauf que roderick est bien le dindon de la farce… et il deviendrait d un coup bien plus « schemer »…
Ca sort de nulle part…
Que Stern est trouvé que la voix de Hobgoblin « etait celle de roderick » pourquoi pas mais en fait ca colle pas…
Le meilleur candidat était Richard Fisk et même lui au fond ne répond pas aux critères… Hobgoblin il aurait fallu justement faire el coup de Ditko… révéler qu on le connaissait pas…
At this late stage, it’s not much of a spoiler to note that Roderick Kingsley is the Hobgoblin, and was the designated culprit by Roger Stern.
Roderick Kingsley appeared as a minor character in The Spectacular Spider-Man #43 (Vol. 1) published in 1980. Roger Stern worked on the satellite title before migrating to Amazing Spider-Man in 1981. The Hobgoblin first appeared in Amazing Spider-Man#238 in 1983, two years later.
The important thing to emphasize about the Hobgoblin:
When Stern first created Hobgoblin, in his very first issue (#238), he did not write the character with Kingsley as the culprit in mind.
When Stern first created Roderick Kingsley, it wasn’t done with the aim of him becoming a supervillain or a capable criminal eventually.
Roderick Kingsley has enjoyed a cult in some corners of Spider-Man fandom. Part of this is out of the common fan sentimentality of Kingsley as Stern’s intended candidate as The Hobgoblin, and so he’s become a symbol of creator intent and a story straying from original intentions to disastrous results. Such an attitude isn’t unwarranted and ideally the Hobgoblin mystery would have worked better had Stern stayed on the title and Kingsley been unveiled in the 1980s itself. But sentimentality is no substitute for critical reading, nor is it a good way of evaluating whether Stern’s stories built the foundation for the reveal to work the way it did, or if Stern’s writing style was up to the challenge of making such a concept work?
My contention is that Roderick Kingsley while a better conceived character than Miles Warren/Jackal is nonetheless beset with the same problems of a lack of suitability and credibility . This is probably a controversial assertion given Mr. Kingsley’s greater, and to me inexplicable, popularity among Spider-Man fans but I feel confident about my reasons for stating so.
SSM#43.
- The first and foremost thing is that Kingsley in his debut issue doesn’t come across as an impressive figure. He’s a fashion designer who is targeted by a supervillain called Belladonna and her flunkies. Spider-Man decides to take an interest and he unearths the fact that Kingsley is a plagiarist who stole designs and drove a company out of business. Spider-Man saves Kingsley and the only hint we get of his future personality is when Kingsley mocks Spider-Man for interfering when he could have finagled out of this problem through legal chicanery. Spider-Man gets irritated enough, that he leaves him webbed out in the New York cold air, left in stocks, until the web thaws out.
SSM#48. Belladonna, the brunette with Narda, her blonde civilian sister
- In follow-up issues we learn a bit more about the villain Belladonna. Namely she’s a cunning supervillain who has a twin sister whose identity she hijacks and which she uses to throw off Spider-Man who investigates Belladonna’s secret identity. The Belladonna secret mystery ultimately doesn’t get solved though any direct investigation either. Kingsley shows up in the background in other issues in The Spectacular Spider-Man as a background character without any hint that he’s set up to be major villain.
Re-reading these issues, it’s pretty clear that Belladonna is the “blueprint” for Hobgoblin. She’s the manipulative figure who uses her twin sister as a decoy to hide her identity and throw off the law and she gets undone when her intricate machinations get undone. A lot of the intricate shenanigans in the Hobgoblin stories play out on a small scale in these stories. We see Stern use elements of the mystery plot, the red herring, and bait and switch, which he repeated in a more baroque fashion in the course of his run.
Pour moi le hobgoblin était mort né… aucun du cast de spidey ne pouvait avoir l allure, l intellect, l coté schemer de hobgoblin… même avec un frere jumeau…
Hobgoblin était trop beau…
- They have also applied a bit of cleverness to argue that Kingsley’s fashion design background reveals itself in his update of costume. Except, Kingsley was originally a plagiarist. He did not design anything but stole from his betters. At heart, he’s a person incapable of talent.
SSM#43. Kingsley in his first appearance was called a “simp” by Belladonna…which has a new connotation in 2022.
- When we first saw Kingsley, he was a reedy sleazebag who got humiliated by Spider-Man and nearly killed by Belladonna. It’s not beyond the realm of possibility that he could have evolved into a more capable villain. But the fact is no scaffolding was ever done to meaningfully set it up.
ASM#238. Hobgoblin in Shadows, al Noir and tough looking, which isn’t the affect of Roderick in the Spectacular story at all.
- When Kingsley, covered in shadows, shows up in the Hobgoblin’s debut issue he’s framed as a more impressive figure. He’s presented as an intimidating acquaintance of Georgie Hill, someone at home in the noir setting of back alleys. There’s no grounds for this change in how Kingsley originally appeared. Kingsley, who was afraid of being in the cold for 15mins outside winter season in his first appearance is suddenly a crimelord who can bomb partners in crime.
SSM#85.
- The main point Stern said in interviews and has Kingsley remark in-universe, is that Hobgoblin is an advance over Norman Osborn because he’s not insane. This attempt to present “insanity” in comic book terms** has obvious weaknesses** in its argument, and even then Kingsley’s actions as Hobgoblin do not register as the actions of a sane man. Decrying Norman Osborn for using his inventions for supervillainy while using his equipment to become another would be supervillain while also mimicking the original Ditko-era Goblin scheme of taking over the underworld doesn’t make too much sense. It’s a case of a villain ventriloquizing ideas more than representing it. Tell rather than show. Roderick as a cold-blooded amoral plagiarist who stabs everyone and everything in the back, victimizes his own brother, actually registers as more purely sociopathic than Norman, having a motiveless malignity about his criminal actions whereas Norman’s actions are metaphorical expressions of a mid-life crisis.
Hobgoblin’s true identity was originally designed by Stern to be a cipher, a blank that was filled in retroactively to be Kingsley because Stern felt that the character voice of the Hobgoblin was similar to to Kingsley’s. Textually, I can’t trace any similarities and I think Stern conflated Belladonna with Kingsley. It’s Belladonna who is remade into the Hobgoblin but with the hapless Kingsley taking her place as Hobgoblin. It’s a bit like watching someone make Ferris Boyle into Mr. Freeze in a new Batman cartoon, rather than the character who had the most thematic claim and fit to the role.
- Roderick Kingsley, or at least a version of him, existed as a supporting character but he now showed up as Mary Jane’s boss. Defalco/Frenz introduced the idea of Mary Jane being an entry level model where she worked for Kingsley’s label. In other words Kingsley finally managed a credible and organic connection with Peter Parker but that happened after Defalco/Frenz made the decision to no longer make him the Hobgoblin. A particularly interesting issue, Spectacular Spider-Man #116, written by Peter A. David, shows Peter overdue for his bills, only to find out that MJ covered him for the month using her check from Kingsley’s payroll. In other words, Kingsley unintentionally paid Spider-Man’s rent.
SSM#116
Kingsley might have been an effective supervillain, a fashion world Mysterio, if the decision wasn’t made to make him a successor to Norman Osborn/Green Goblin. The latter required a scaling up beyond his meager scale, boots too large for him. Even then it might have worked had the scaffolding established the links between the two versions. The later retcons that Kingsley had a twin brother Daniel, and that any appearance of Roderick as somewhat vulnerable is down to the twin in Roderick’s shoes, is plainly a steal from Belladonna, and even then is melodramatically cliche.
Had the Hobgoblin threaded itself organically into Peter’s milieu, such as Mary Jane’s fashion work, it would have worked better. Instead, the character is tied up to underworld shenanigans which can never achieve any true value in a Spider-Man comic as opposed to the Noir flavored world of Daredevil, where the criminal underworld and its existence casts an appropriately serious mood that can never be truly sustained in the pages of Spider-Man for an extended period.
tout ce que je pense…
Il avait une réelle présence dans les Spectacular. Et quand Stern passe sur Amazing, le personnage fait des apparitions raréfiées, jusqu’à disparaître dans l’arrière-plan. C’est bizarre, d’ailleurs.
Le départ de Stern a été un violent coup d’arrêt à la série. Ouais, DeFalco lance des choses, mais quel bazar.
Justement.
C’est comme le Moriarty de la version Moffat : un personnage secondaire, insignifiant, qui cache son jeu.
En plus, c’est un plagiaire dans le milieu de la mode, qui devient un plagiaire dans le milieu criminel.
Après, de toute façon, on saura jamais.
Moi, j’ai bien aimé la mini Hobgoblin Lives, elle fait partie de ces titres qui « corrigent » des périodes pénibles (comme Avengers Forever avec le cross-over de Bob Harras, pour donner une idée).
Et toute cette affaire ne fait que faire regretter encore plus que Stern n’ait pas continué sur Amazing.
Jim
Ned Leeds, en soi, n’était pas une si mauvaise idée, mais à condition de préparer un peu en amont ses motivations et son modus operandi. En l’état, c’est une solution incohérente.
Quand on sait que c’est devenu « canon » (enfin, avant « Hobgoblin Lives ») juste parce que de Falco a balancé ce nom à Owsley pour l’embrouiller car il était sûr, à juste titre pour le coup, que son propre éditeur le poignarderait dans le dos… Je trouve l’absence de professionnalisme d’Owsley absolument dingue sur le coup (à sa décharge, il avait la petite vingtaine à l’époque… et il a admis avoir fait n’importe quoi ; faute avouée, etc.).
Je ne trouve pas.
Là ca fait vraiment « tiens pourquoi pas lui? »
Mais c est le souci de pas le préparer en amont… au fond c est un peu comme Osborn… je trouve qu il y a toujours un point où c est pas cohérent à 100%
Si tu fais un truc comme ca tu sais qui c est depuis le départ car tu as tout fait pour … sinon le costume sera toujours trop grand.
Moffat c etait préparé et lors de la révélation on te le montre que c etait préparé
BIG NEWS 2023 VOL 2 ! Et on termine notre voyage dans le Multivers (encore une fois accompagné par Spider-Man) avec une nouvelle collection à petit prix LE MULTIVERS MARVEL ! Pour découvrir le maximum de nouvelles réalités, voici 6 albums avec des classiques et des récits plus originaux qui vous attendront dans les librairies en juin !
Avec :
HOUSE OF M
SPIDER-MAN : L’EMPIRE
MARVEL ZOMBIES
COSMIC GHOST RIDER
DEADPOOL MASSACRE L’UNIVERS MARVEL
SPIDER-GEDDON
Indice pour demain : Extravaganza !
Faut qu’ils arrêtent avec les multiples collections.
2 « J'aime »
YES!
Yes!
Tu me diras si jai bien compris DeFalco voulait que ce soit lui la Rose.
Roderick la rose et fisk hobgoblin si j ai compris
Oui, et finalement interverti.
Ah bah ouais ! J’ai vu des couv’ du Edge, et y a des trucs un peu barrés, visiblement.
Hum …
Oui, c’est bien pour moi ! 
Le seul truc que je n’ai pas digéré, ce sont les deux mini runs de Jessica Jones sortis dans le 3e volume du deluxe… je n’ai justement rien d’autre à faire que de croiser les doigts pour qu’ils le remettent dans la collection marvel-verse de JJ s’ils le sortent un jour…
BIG NEWS 2023 VOL 2 ! On commence cette journée Big Finale Extravangaza sans thématique particulière avec un premier volet d’annonces de la collection MARVEL CLASSIC (nos fameuses INTÉGRALES) qui fera plaisir à la génération Strange !
- En juin, c’est le très attendu 3e tome d’ALPHA FLIGHT qui termine le run de John Byrne sur la Division Alpha !
- Et en juillet, c’est le début d’une nouvelle série avec le premier tome des NEW WARRIORS ! La série des jeunes héros a été l’un des hits les plus durables des années 90 et a vu le titre toucher de nombreux sujets sociétaux au delà des aventures super-héroïques concoctées par Fabian Nicieza et Mark Bagley (puis Darick Robertson).
Profitez de l’occasion pour redécouvrir les aventures de Nova, Speedball et Firestar !
Je suis donc pas la génération strange
Cool
génération « rachète à prix reuch des histoires que tu pouvais lire à pas cher »
Avec des pages en moins
Ca fait cher les deux pages quand même